(2013-02-01) Magic Discussion
Details for Magic Discussion
Summary: A brainstorming session with the community about the direction we've been going with the magic system (including dueling). Note that as of this posting, nothing in this log is decided upon.
Date: February 10, 2013
Location: N/A

Gabriel, Monkey, Lionel, Auspice, Alphanaut, Seamus, Lamp

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Okay! So, we're here to talk about the magic rules, the direction we've been going with them, and to brainstorm about alternatives and new ideas. This isn't a place to vent. If you have a concern or complaint about how things are done, please keep it constructive, and try to follow it up with suggestions. We want to keep things moving toward positive solutions!"

<Chat> Lamp thumbs up.

<Chat> Monkey says, "I will observe and chime in if I feel like I can add something. At this point, I have yet to do any combat or dueling. :/"

<Chat> Lionel says, "Bringing up examples of things that don't seem to work for reference for our suggestions is okay, right? So long as it's meant to reference for our improvement ideas and not just griping, right?"

<Chat> Monkey says, "That certainly helps clarify things."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Definitely, Lionel. We understand that people need to refer to what isn't working. We just ask that we aren't barraged with "this sucks and it's totally broken." Specifics are helpful."

<Chat> Lionel says, "Awesome! Thanks! I think we all agree, if it weren't a little broken, there'd be no reason to talk about ideas for making it better :)"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "When we initially put up a bbpost about this, those that responded seemed to favor a simplified spell list in which spells are simply given a level. The problem is that more and more, we see a lot questions coming up about how specific spells work, and we are leaning toward a more detailed list."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I think we should always have talks to make things better…whether they seem awesome or not. ;)"

<Chat> Monkey says, "I think that a detailed system is easier to handle if you have it well-coded…that way you don't have to remember all of the details unless you are looking for that extra edge, or you are concerned with a specific outcome, and then you can go look it up if it is well documented."

<Chat> Monkey says, "because people don't want to be bogged down with details unless there's some tools that make it easier…a detailed list will be painful if it is all by hand."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "That's the ideal, Monkey. Though it may be a while before we get to the point that we have everything coded. So there could be some growing pains. The benefit, of course, being that people would still have the choice about how much code they want to use, since the spell list would be very public."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Of course."

<Chat> Monkey nodnods.

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Naturally, this also ties into the dueling system and magical combat, and the use of OM and DM. For the record, OM and DM could potentially be scrapped altogether. So keep that in mind as we move forward."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Well some things that could make a detailed list easier to handle manually would be an easy method to look them up. I could come up with several ideas on that…but all this talk is really centered around ease of use…not balance, which is the harder thing to solve and people have spoken up about that."

<Chat> Lionel says, "One thing that might make it easier could be to first classify the spells by usage? Like, "Combat" "NonCombat Targeted" "NonCombat Self" etc? Things like using your wand as a flashlight don't really need extensive write ups the way attempting to cast as spell to whither someone's limb would."

<Chat> Lamp says, "I can't focus on this."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Yeah…but if you cast lumos as a flashbang?"

<Chat> Monkey says, "Powerful."

<Chat> Lamp will try to chime in a bit.

<Chat> Lionel says, "Can you do that, Monk?"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "S'okay, Lamp. Whatever input you're able to give is welcome. :)"

<Chat> Lamp notes, though: "There is a Lumos casting that is 'Lumos Solarum' that allows that, I think

<Chat> Monkey says, "And to blast out an entire "platoon" of peeps with a flash…that would be up to the GM to allow it."

<Chat> Monkey says, "But there are super creative ways to use spells at high power."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Like look at what Dumbledore did in the Mysteries fight."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "This is another reason we like the idea of the detailed spell list, so people don't have to wait for a GM ruling about things like whether Lumos can be used as a flashbang."

<Chat> Lionel says, "Which is exactly the problem with trying to do extensive write ups for all the spells, Monkey. HP is, as a genre, horribly fast and loose with magic."

<Chat> Lionel says, "I don't have a solution for that, just noting it for consideration in case others might."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Which is why having everything grounded in a OM and DM doesn't make sense when you want to allow for creativity and not just have everyone be successful or non-successful…don't get me wrong, OM and DM worked for where we /were/…SC is clearly looking to see how to evolve the system."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Totally…but if there is some framework in place…you can extrapolate modifiers for situations."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Just using your best judgement..because there's already a pattern of what is acceptable."

<Chat> Gabriel has two big suggestions: 1) Do away with OM and DM, use the specific abilities for casting (ie: Charms, Transfiguaration, DADA, etc…). I know that would make things more complex but it would also enrichen character development and provide a real purpose to spending XP in those areas. And that dove tails with the spell lists etc. 2) Give some more thought to how exactly initiative affects casting, especially in duels… Or more acurately, clarify the system we have, which I think works well when used properly.

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Plus, we don't always have to match the canon. The books contradict themselves all over the place. So there will be times that we'll make decisions about how a spell works that means you won't be able to replicate something a novel character did."

<Chat> Monkey says, "So it would be canon to contradict ourselves? ;P"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Monkey, I -will- put you back in the cage."

<Chat> Monkey climbs into her barrel….

<Chat> Monkey says, "I like Gabe's suggestions."

<Chat> SeanCee nods to Gabriel. "That was one line of thinking we were following. Initially, OM and DM were there to simplify magical combat. But it may be that they're actually making it more complicated and hard to understand."

<Chat> Monkey is percolating ideas. Hmm.

<Chat> Seamus says, "The problem with doing away with OM and DM is we'd have to detail which spells use Charms, DADA, Transfiguration, and so forth."

<Chat> Monkey says, "That can be coded /very/ quickly."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "True, but that's where the spell list and code come in."

<Chat> Lionel agrees with Gabriel, had suggested that before. I really think, as well, that it makes more sense to do contested rolls when fighting. Winner's spell goes off, losers doesn't.

<Chat> Lionel says, "In HP magic, using initiative system just makes it feel unnecesary to roll the spell casting, because whoever goes off first typically wins."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "And if someone is using a spell that isn't on the list, hopefully there's something similar that can be used to determine it. Plus, I've been adding more info to the wiki to clarify just what the differences are between charms and transfiguration (the big two)."

<Chat> Monkey says, "So…I like tying things back to the different schools of magic…and building points in those."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Do you have an idea on a different engagement system Lionel?"

<Chat> Nova has joined this channel.

<Chat> Gabriel says, "What I've noticed about the OM/DM system is that it curtails imaginative use of spells… Personally, I'm against the idea of using a lot of code, people know how to count dots and input them into the dice system. I like the idea of contested rolls too Lionel, but initiative is still useful to determine declaration order, thus letting the person with higher intitiative to react strategically… And I think the contested rolls should determine /how/ well each spell works, not necessarily which one does and which one doesn't/"

<Chat> Monkey says, "I do not use dice systems."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I've never played tabletops."

<Chat> Monkey says, "So that isn't easy for me."

<Chat> Lionel says, "I know that on other FS3 games, most don't use initiative at all. The idea is, having higher skill roll means you were faster than the other person. The declaring actions thing really slows combat down."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "That is a good point."

<Chat> Auspice says, "I'm gonna be idly for work, but I point at the dueling scenes in HP as where intiative works… Yes, they were both casting, but Snape was just -quicker-. Finer reflexes, finger reaction time. So, it does make sense. To me, at least. It's not initiative in that you're taking turns, it's figuring out who is quicker on the draw."

<Chat> Lionel says, "If it matters, for reference, folks coould look at Sweetwater's combat page or Steel and Stones."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "The dueling system was always intended just for formal duels. We hadn't gotten as far as magical combat outside of duels. But as for making attack and initiative the same roll, I worry that it makes the character with the higher skill much, much too powerful."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I never saw it as initiative, but I think some players can let it slip into that…I remember on other HP games, it happened, even though it wasn't intended."

<Chat> Lionel says, "I'm just a movie guy, so bear with me, but I recall most major fights resolving with two wands firing blasts at each other and they just spray magic juice everywhere until eventually one had more skill."

<Chat> Boo says, "To give insight on how things were intended from the start is that we'd code everything so then people can do as I always say they can do and amongst themselves decide what level they are going to use for a certain versus issue, from the fully automated (that we are slowly working towards) to just freeform posing."

<Chat> Monkey agrees with SC.

<Chat> Lionel says, "I think higher skill SHOULD be more powerful. That's the point, isn't it?"

<Chat> Monkey says, "And then you get into trying to throw some fudging in there to let the person with lower skill have a chance…which feels unfair overall."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "I think the initiative issue caomes down to how quickly we want magical combat to move. Having it does slow down things but it also give the 'underdog' a bigger chance to pull an upset."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Yes, more powerful at casting. But to make that person also quicker means the other guy has even less of a chance."

<Chat> Boo says, "OM and DM are there for simplicity sake, just like the other action skills Fighting covers anything you can do with a weapon at another person. I find it a bit shocking hearing people say it curtails imagination. It's as open ended as they want. If they are attacking someone they use OM and fill in how they are attacking someone with magic, which /requires/ imagination."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Just because someone is stronger than me, doesn't mean I can't win."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I think it would be helpful to break down what casting is made of…the components…to just see what the model looks like: We have the success of the cast, the strength/power, the reaction time (how quick on the draw). That's only three. Am I missing something?"

<Chat> Lamp says, "Case in point on that: some of the upsets in the Paladin's Challenge."

<Chat> Lionel says, "SeanCee, I thought speed was represented in the Attribute dice added to the skill. To Boo, I agree with you about the vagueness being awesome."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Aim, but that can be rolled into success of cast."

<Chat> Lamp says, "Monkey: you could tie marksmanship into it."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "The Attribute dice just represent raw, untrained potential. Mind is the only Attribute added to spellcasting, whereas we used Mind and Reaction for Initiative, to show that quicker reflexes can matter."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I don't think it curtails imagination Boo, but when you have someone doing the superior strategic move…but they have less OM or DM…and they still lose."

<Chat> Monkey says, "It's wonky."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "An example about the imagination thing Boo: If I sink a ton of points into OM but only have three points in each area of magic anything I throw out there in a combat will be powerful, regardless of my level of knowledge, so I don't have to think strategically. If on the other hand, there is no OM then I have to really think about my skills and how to use them to defend myself."

<Chat> Lionel says, "Why don't we make casting always be Mind+Reaction+MagicSkill? Then it figures initiative into the role?"

<Chat> Monkey says, "And then you can get into carving out a combat style."

<Chat> Monkey says, "for your char."

<Chat> Monkey says, "To speak to what Gabe is saying"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Gabriel: One idea we had to address that (if we keep OM/DM) is that certain spells will only be available if you have a magical skill (e.g. Charms) at a given level, as well as the appropriate level of training (such as 5th Year Charms Class)."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Plus I don't feel like, as a player, that there is any reason to have a background skill except to prove that my person is good at say…Transfig…we don't use it. Which gives a player no incentive to put points into it except to get a certain career level."

<Chat> Monkey says, "So you end up having to still develop OM and DM on top of it…which feels not so great."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Lionel: I'm not sure if FS3 allows for multiple attributes and a skill. It certianly doesn't allow multiple skills. But still, the fact that skills range from 1-12 means there can be an enormous difference in speed, which will be the exact same difference as with power. So, the more powerful wizard becomes exponentially more powerful. I think it's overkill, personally."

<Chat> Monkey says, "But…I think why we are experiencing pain is because we're on the edge of two different systems."

<Chat> Lionel says, "It's not overkill when that's added to both rollers, if that made sense? But, if code doesn't allow that, it's moot. :)"

<Chat> Monkey says, "Why can't we tie speed to body or reaction?"

<Chat> Monkey says, "I might be missing something."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Try not to think of what code will or will not allow."

<Chat> Monkey says, "We are blue sky brainstorming. ;)"

<Chat> Monkey says, "Don't want to curtail creativity."

<Chat> Boo says, "The Spell Training levels (are getting) put there (on the WIP spell pages on the wiki) so that people do have those sort of constraints. So some 1st year knows what they would know and be able to do within their OM and DM. I agree with Monkey. @Lion: FS3 doesn't allow for that sort of multiple rolling. If you write it up like that in a roll it's just the random roll you get when you say +roll DoesOM+DM+Work ;D"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Monkey: My issue isn't so much adding two attributes, or even which attribute we use. My issue is using the same roll for both the order of actions, and the action itself. It means that the person who casts better also casts faster. It gives no chance to the less powerful caster who might just get their weak little Stunning Spell in there before their slower opponent uses a Killing Curse on them."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I agree…okay, I'm up to speed now. Yeah. I don't like initiative and action in one."

<Chat> Auspice says, "The kids in the Mystery Department succeeded because of those spells and being quick, yeah. :D"

<Chat> Lionel says, "Well, I think then, the first question becomes, do we want/need initiative? FS3 isn't actually built to use init. Personally, I don't feel we need it. I like the idea of skill prowess representing that you're better and faster at using it."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Like…you want dynamics of the classics…like this: I can develop a giant tanky dude and hits hard, but I'm slow…or a quick little nat who doesn't have powerful spells."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Otherwise you get the snowball effect like SC is pointing out."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "I tend to agree with SC on the initiative issue. As for what SC and Boo where mentioning of the proposed system to keep OM/DM but still have limitations on the spells, I think that might be getting mightly complicated and making moot the whole point of OM/DM."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Uh..that takes a lot of depth out of a system."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Re: Lionel."

<Chat> Lionel says, "Potter isn't a combat game. The depth is elsewhere, IMO."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Giant tanky dude in HP: Puts up a sustained strong shield…pummels."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Uh."

<Chat> Monkey says, "When you are in a combat scene…you are in a combat scene. The depth is in the story, but you want the combat to be fun and not rote. It's a game."

<Chat> Lionel says, "We're arguing opinions that are now off topic, Monk. :)"

<Chat> Monkey says, "You want the system to be light (for the player), but fun, so that people feel like it's fair…and it's great going into a combat scene and not knowing /exactly/ if you're going to win…because of multiple reasons."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Kk"

<Chat> Boo says, "FS3 Does in fact use Initiative in their combat system. Initiative in FS3 = Reaction."

<Chat> Lionel says, "That's only partially correct. The combat system figures it in automatically when you roll combat skill versus combat skill, which is why FS3 games don't actually roll Initiative. At least, that's how Faraday had explained it to me."

<Chat> Lionel says, "But, for it to do that, you have to be using the full combat code, which we don't here."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "While Initiative is relevant, I'd like to get back to the main point of the spell list, and whether to keep OM and DM."

<Chat> Boo says, "Because we don't have magic programmed in. Cause that's a massive project. The code rolls everyone's initiative automatically. For magic we just have to do it manually cause it's not coded."

<Chat> Boo says, "But yes, OM & DM. I don't mind tossing them. They've always just been there for the in between of getting a coded system and the spell lists we've been working on done."

<Chat> Monkey says, "so is the proposal, to make sure I'm on the same page, is that either we keep going with the spell list and consider keeping/removing OM DM when it's complete? Or we cease the spell list…..or something completely different and unmentioned?"

<Chat> Boo says, "There's no real proposal, this is just a soundgarden of ideas and opinions."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Yes, we're here to get ideas on the table. Just to be clear, even if I've disagreed, I'm not poo-pooing any ideas. We want to hear it all."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Oh yeah, probably bad word…more like, trying to get a feel for the main discussion threads here."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Right now, my feeling is that the spell list is needed, no matter which way we go with the system. There are just so many questions and disagreements about how spells should work, and having a single, official WiWi source will clarify so much of that."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I don't think it would hurt to go with it, and see how people feel about it. Not like we can't discuss this again. Though, it's up to staff, because it is a lot of work."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Heh, yes. That's the thing. I'd hate to spend a bajillion hours on the spell list, only to find we have to scrap it."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Well…I will point out."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "I guess that's the real point of this discussion. We're trying to determine the best way to spend our time to improve the game."

<Chat> Lionel thinks a spell list on the wiki is needed, along with simple clarification of what year of school they become accessible. Then, do away with OM and DM, and instead, classify each of those spells as a Charm, Transfiguration, DADA or whatever, and role those in combat instead of OM or DM.

<Chat> Monkey says, "If we are to move to a coded system, it's better to have all the kinks mostly out of the design before investing in coding it. ;)"

<Chat> Lionel doesn't think at any point programing a grimoire into the code is necessary.

<Chat> Monkey says, "And this will allow us to play with something before it is coded…and like I said, I think there are some things we can code that are lower in scope to help ease of use until the final system is finished."

<Chat> Monkey chuckles at Lionel.

<Chat> Boo says, "Yeah, I've done that a little too much with WW1. Which is why originally I had hoped that something very loose and simple like OM/DM would work here. But with all the problems we've had lately, I'm just not seeing it work out in the long run."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "The nice thing about coding all the spells is that it's there for those that wish to use it. But it isn't required."

<Chat> Lionel doesn't think we need to code all spells.

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Do you feel it hurts anything to do so?"

<Chat> Lionel says, "We don't roll spells. We roll the skill for the catagory they are in."

<Chat> Lionel says, "It only hurts your free time?"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "By the way, for anyone that hasn't seen it, this is the work-in-progress spell page: wandw.wikidot.com/spells"

<Chat> Lionel :) I just don't at all see it necessary. I find grimoires to be really frustrating as a player.

<Chat> Boo says, "I always like to go the millionth mile so that players only have to jog. The point is Lion you don't have to use it, but it's there for the people that do find it useful."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "True, it will take more time. But we'll probably just chain Monkey to her computer and make her code it. ;)"

<Chat> Lionel wants to make sure, when you say code, do you mean on the wiki or on the game?

<Chat> SeanCee says, "On the game."

<Chat> Auspice says, "Monkey is still here, but the client she's using is acting up. just fyi"

<Chat> Monkey :D

<Chat> Monkey says, "I have an idea."

<Chat> Monkey says, "But it's for much later."

<Chat> Lionel says, "Yeah. See, that doesn't seem necessary to me. If you roll Charms, then just code Charms. List what the charms are on the wiki."

<Chat> Monkey says, "And I need to think on it more."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "Oh yeah… I did have a suggestion for the page. Instead of listing them alphabeticlly I think it might be good to list them by year (like you're doing with the Herbology page) and then within the year they're learned list them alphabetically."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Basically, it means someone could just type "+cast Stupefy", and it would automatically roll Mind + Charms, and spit back the appropriate results based on the level of success. It means someone doesn't have to go reference the wiki to cast the spell."

<Chat> Monkey fixed my client so I can talk now *with magic, bc I don't know what happened*

<Chat> Auspice says, "We have a handful of people now who use their phone/tablet to MU* sometimes. Bringing up the Wiki isn't easy when you're doing that. Even if it was just a '+spells/<year>' list or something, I'd love an on-game listing."

<Chat> Boo says, "As I said earlier in this discussion, I want to offer a solid full spectrum of options. I want people to be able to use the Combat System that also includes magic, but again you can simply Freeform fight/cast as long as everyone in the conflict has agreed on the level used."

<Chat> Lionel notes, that assumes that the player knows the name and spelling of the weird word each spell is called.

<Chat> Monkey says, "I have an idea immediately for spells besides the wiki…I like the alphabetical…but I could code a system in game or out that allows you to find things easily by tags…so like, you have a transfig spell that is 1st year…you could search for any of the tags that identify it…and it pops up."

<Chat> Monkey says, "That's super fast and easy to use in a scene."

<Chat> Monkey says, "At least i think so."

<Chat> Lionel says, "This just all sounds like overcomplicating something to me. I'm not trying to be argumentative or a downer, so I apologize for saying that."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Usually, to be simple for the user…things are complex under the hood."

<Chat> Auspice nodnod

<Chat> Lionel says, "No no, what I'm saying is, what you are proposing, Monkey, regardless of what's under the hood, sounds overcomplicated to me as a user."

<Chat> Lionel says, "But, I could be a minority on that, and will roll with what majority wants :)"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Hopefully, the end result will be that everyone can use whichever method works best for them."

<Chat> Monkey says, "That's kind of my point."

<Chat> Monkey says, "It allows people to find things their way."

<Chat> Alphanaut says, "I am pro-spell list. Thematically it fits for me. But having any sort of spell list brings up the question, what if you want to cast a spell that isn't on the list? Is it Not Possible, roll something that makes sense, roll for a similar spell, etc? Both mechanically and thematically."

<Chat> Boo says, "@Alpha, it was mentone pre-you-log-on. The idea for that is find the closest resembling spell and use it as a base of ref."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Alphanaut: That will depend also on the situation, and may require staff to come in an adjudicate. But the list should dramatically reduce the need for that. I hope!"

<Chat> Boo says, "Or if you're in a free form fight. Don't worry about it. ;D"

<Chat> Monkey says, "I think it's easy to devise something for that. XD And honestly…that's discretion right? The idea is just to minimize need for staff to determine results 98 percent of the time, have it be fun and fair."

<Chat> Boo taps her nose at Monkey.

<Chat> Monkey peers…what does that mean?…nose tapping?

<Chat> Lionel has left this channel.

<Chat> Boo says, "On the nose, on the dot, precisely, spot on, etc. ;D"

<Chat> Monkey says, "Hahaha. Oh. ^__^"

<Chat> Alphanaut nods. The other big problem I ran into in duels, was when both sides cast offensively. I think the roll is OM vs Reaction? Rolling an attribute vs a skill feels massively unfair to me. The difference in dice pools is just too big.

<Chat> Monkey says, "I would just suggest that if you have to deviate, let people know in the scene OOCly so people are in agreement with how it will be treated before the outcome happens."

<Chat> Gabriel actually disagrees on this point,"Magic in HP is based on pre-established incantations. You don't just create those on the spot. If someone wants a spell that doesn't presently exist there should be a system in place for them to actually spend the IC time and resources to experiment and perfect the spell before it can be used.

<Chat> Seamus says, "Actually it's meant to be really hard."

<Chat> Boo says, "There's a lot more spells out there that aren't detailed on the lists Gabriel is the crux of the new spells thing."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I don't think that's what Auspice is referring to Gabe."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Yeah, I think everyone agrees that you shouldn't be going, "GOBBLY GOOK" I WIN!"

<Chat> Gabriel says, "@Alpha: We talked about that, it was suggested they should be contested rolls."

<Chat> Monkey says, "It's similiar to my accio which has 60 points. :D"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Regarding the duel issue: Yes, the OM + Reaction is intentially weighted toward the attacker, because it means the defender isn't actively defending."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Btw, I propose a new spell called "Gobbly Gook." :D"

<Chat> Boo says, "It's a Goblin only spell. ;P"

<Chat> Gabriel says, "It summons gummy turkeys. ;)"

<Chat> Monkey says, "Nooooooooo. XD"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Okay, so does anyone have a good reason to -keep- OM and DM?"

<Chat> Gabriel shakes head.

<Chat> Monkey says, "Nope."

<Chat> Seamus says, "Other than it makes things simpler?"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "That's a perfectly valid reason, Seamus. We just have to weigh that against the pros of dropping them."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I think we should wait to drop them until the spell list is more complete…I might be captain obvious but I just want to make sure."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Stop making sense."

<Chat> Alphanaut says, "What would they be replaced with? Sorry brain is having a hard time switching gears. Too much thinking."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "We would formalize various "class" type skills, such as Charms, Transfiguration, Ancient Runes, etc."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "The other thing to think about is, if we drops them, how are the people that have spent a lot of points in OM or DM going to be compensated."

<Chat> Seamus says, "I'd assume we would be allowed to reallocate them."

<Chat> Boo says, "The feel of FS3 is very K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid). Especially in Versus situations. Which is why we don't have swordsmanship, archery, brawling, bludgeoning, knifey. My worry is that it will turn into a balance issue if we try to complicate a coded system that's meant to be extremely Fast, Furious, Fun! To rip off another system's motto. ;D"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "With chocolate! Or, what Seamus said."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I know it makes no sense that the Monkey makes sense. it's hard. XD"

<Chat> Seamus says, "It's honestly a shame we can't roll 2 skills because that would be best."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Yeah, we can KISS some areas that make sense for HP…and not in areas that do. There's no rulebook! We make it! XD"

<Chat> Seamus says, "Actually technically there /is/ a rule book."

<Chat> Monkey says, "…I think you know what I mean though."

<Chat> SeanCee snickers.

<Chat> Seamus says, "Yes. I just couldn't resist. But my thing is that I think switching to the individual types will cause more issues."

<Chat> Alphanaut says, "I like the feel of both in different ways. I think ultimately using class skills allows for more creativity and playing to your character's strenghths."

<Chat> Gabriel taps his nose at Alpha.

<Chat> SeanCee says, "It does mean that it'll be harder to be "awesome duelist guy," but I think that's probably a good thing. Plus it means Lucian won't seem so twinky. *hangs head*"

<Chat> Monkey says, "I feel like it allows you to carve out an identity for your character that other people just can't up and use…because they have that blanket skill."

<Chat> Seamus says, "It's one of those that's a lovely idea but it leads to a lot of complications because we have to make sure we know how each spell functions on a given success level."

<Chat> Monkey says, "So something in between extreme blanket…and extreme detail. Which I like the categories."

<Chat> Seamus says, "But you're approaching that from the stats make the character versus the stats working for the character."

<Chat> Monkey says, "I know Seamus…I do that for a living. XD"

<Chat> Boo says, "@Alpha, You're still supposed to be playing to your character's strengths no matter what. It doesn't matter what system is used if people aren't playing up how their characters would be in a combat situation."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Not to be a jerk…but what you're saying is /valid/…but we can't be afraid to try new things…to find the right balance."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Ultimately, I think that combat is one of the few times when the particulars of a given spell will matter all that much. If I'm casting Alarte Ascendare to lauch Monkey up to the next level of the moving staircase, and I only get a Great Success, which should allow for 20 feet up, but the next level is 30 feet up…nobody is really gonna complain if we didn't check the wiki and just assumed a Great Success was enough."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Totally agree with SC."

<Chat> Alphanaut says, "Rephrase: There is system incentive to being creative and playing to your strengths."

<Chat> Monkey says, "The granularity of results really matter situationally…and like SC pointed out…like I'm not going to give a crap if it doesn't exactly hit the wiki stuff…because in a social scene, sometimes it's just more fun to let things go."

<Chat> SeanCee taps nose at Alpha. "I'm a big proponent of incentivizing with the system."

<Chat> Monkey nodnods.

<Chat> Gabriel says, "Agrees."

<Chat> Alphanaut says, "Everything is dog training XP"

<Chat> Monkey says, "I didn't see the XP, and thought you were doing some Fight Club doublespeak or something. XD I read it as, "Everything is dog training." and my mind went immediately to. "Dog training is everything.""

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Okay, I have a new question to pose to you."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "Shoot."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "So, we drop OM and DM. That's fine. We have a bucketload of other magical skills that cover spellcasting. But even then, most will probably fall under Charms or Transfiguration, making them awfully powerful. I am proposing to split those two skills up further, into two skill each (which I'll detail in a moment). Yes, it's splitting hairs further, but it also helps encourage people to carve out their magical niche. I also mitigates the issue of having a legion of characters with high Charms and Transfig, the same way we now have so many with high OM and DM."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "My proposal for breaking up those skills goes like this: Charms becomes something like 'Mental Charms' and 'Physical Charms' (for lack of cooler sounding names). Transfiguration becomes 'Transformation' and 'Conjuration' (the latter including vanishment effects)."

<Chat> Gabriel says, "I don't think that's a bad idea… Its the nature of the beast, the more balanced you try to make a game system the more complicated its going to become."

<Chat> Monkey returns and plays catch up.

<Chat> Alphanaut says, "My concern with that is standardizing background skills. It's harder to know what you're supposed to take, checking it in chargen becomes more important, spending XP after chargen is basically a crapshoot."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Well…you pointed out that spending xp after chargen is basically a crapshoot…maybe that's an important point."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Can you expand on that?"

<Chat> SeanCee nods. "Alpha, what we're looking at is actually making the magical skills Action Skills."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Monkey, I don't understand what you mean."

<Chat> Takeshi has connected.

<Chat> SeanCee says, "By the way, just a general reminder to everyone to make sure you leave this channel before logging off."

<Chat> Takeshi says, "ok, noted"

<Chat> Takeshi says, "i did not know that :P"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "We're also going to look into how hard it would be to have a "Magic Skills" section of the character sheet, distinguishing magical skills from the others."

<Chat> Monkey says, "Idling a little."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "It's all good, Takeshi. :)"

<Chat> Takeshi says, "would that be with different XP?"

<Chat> Takeshi says, "or do you mean just organizing the sheet better"

<Chat> Auspice has left this channel.

<Chat> Monkey says, "I guess..I was trying to say…I don't want to balance they system around possible flaws?"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Takeshi: Sorry, you're coming into the tail end of a big conversation. We're talking about reworking the way magic skills are handled."

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Monkey: I'm still not quite getting it. :("

<Chat> Monkey says, "Maybe it's not relevant yet. don't worry about it SC…if it truly is, I'll figure out how to say it. XD"

<Chat> SeanCee says, "Heh, okay."

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